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Post by Tyler on Jul 20, 2009 14:34:09 GMT
I say that, we've recovered from 1-2 to 27-3
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Post by lemonpiper on Jul 20, 2009 15:45:57 GMT
75 years since we won an Ashes test at Lords so that was quite some performance. Not there yet but if Freddie stays fit it's got to be looking good.
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Post by Wolvensam on Jul 20, 2009 15:47:42 GMT
Which is a gigantic if. Pietersen has an achilles injury too.
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Post by lemonpiper on Jul 20, 2009 16:05:58 GMT
Not so bothered about Pietersen as he hasn't really performed for quite some time now. Always promises much but doesn't deliver. Luckily, the batting strength in depth usually makes up for him. Freddy is a different matter. Although Harmison is back on song as far as the bowling replacement goes he can't cover Freddies batting.
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Post by Lukiebakercafc on Jul 20, 2009 18:45:01 GMT
I don't think Harmison is in the same league as Flintoff bowling-wise, still not consistent enough. And Flintoff's batting isn't that great, he'll get a few runs down the order for you but don't over-estimate it, he's not the same batsman that was liable to hit centuries back in 2005.
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Post by Tyler on Jul 20, 2009 18:51:47 GMT
If Harmison was going to get picked, it should've been Lords. Nowhere will there be a better track for him, Headingly might be the closest
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Post by lemonpiper on Jul 20, 2009 21:32:53 GMT
I don't think Harmison is in the same league as Flintoff bowling-wise, still not consistent enough. And Flintoff's batting isn't that great, he'll get a few runs down the order for you but don't over-estimate it, he's not the same batsman that was liable to hit centuries back in 2005. Figures don't agree with that though Luke: In tests Harmison has taken 221 wickets at an average of 31.78 with 8 x 5 & 1 x 10 wicket hauls in 61 matches, Freddie has taken 225 wickets at an average of 32.17 with 3 x 5 & 0 x 10 wicket hauls in 77 matches. And Freddie's batting average may only be 31.71 but they're usually exciting innings!
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Post by Lukiebakercafc on Jul 20, 2009 22:24:31 GMT
31.71 is a good batting average but he's no longer at that batting level imo. Statistics can be misleading as well. Flintoff has taken those wickets consistently and will have spent most of his career at that bowling average. By contrast Harmison had about 18 months where he was probably the best bowler in the world when he will have taken a large number of those wickets at a better average.
He then went off the boil for a long time where his average will be worse and less wickets being taken. They will average out at those statistics obviously but Harmison is a lot less consistent than Freddie nonetheless.
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Post by arover on Jul 20, 2009 22:33:28 GMT
I don't think Harmison is in the same league as Flintoff bowling-wise, still not consistent enough. And Flintoff's batting isn't that great, he'll get a few runs down the order for you but don't over-estimate it, he's not the same batsman that was liable to hit centuries back in 2005. Agree with all of that.
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Post by Bismarck on Jul 21, 2009 10:13:49 GMT
Flintoff's bowling in the Australian second innings was magnificent - fast, accurate, and not for a moment did any of their batsmen look comfortable against him.
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Post by Tyler on Jul 21, 2009 10:52:54 GMT
Most international pacemen are fast and accurate.
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Post by lemonpiper on Jul 21, 2009 11:23:33 GMT
31.71 is a good batting average but he's no longer at that batting level imo. Statistics can be misleading as well. Flintoff has taken those wickets consistently and will have spent most of his career at that bowling average. By contrast Harmison had about 18 months where he was probably the best bowler in the world when he will have taken a large number of those wickets at a better average. He then went off the boil for a long time where his average will be worse and less wickets being taken. They will average out at those statistics obviously but Harmison is a lot less consistent than Freddie nonetheless. Freddie's average at Cardiff was 31.5 (37 & 26) & Lords was 34 (4 & 30 n.o.) but I take your point. However, although I can see what your saying about consistency the fact is that Harmison, at his best, can do a very good job and his county performances recently have been nearing his form of old. Fortunately, it doesn't look as if we are going to have to find out as Freddie says he thinks he'll be OK for the rest of the series - although one never knows as injury can strike at any time.
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Post by Tyler on Jul 21, 2009 11:49:14 GMT
Also Flintoff isnt an opening bowler. The only true opening bowler we have is Anderson and he hasn't been doing that long.
Harmison and Hoggard opening was the most feared attack in the world
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Post by Bismarck on Jul 21, 2009 12:38:31 GMT
31.71 is a good batting average but he's no longer at that batting level imo. Statistics can be misleading as well. Flintoff has taken those wickets consistently and will have spent most of his career at that bowling average. By contrast Harmison had about 18 months where he was probably the best bowler in the world when he will have taken a large number of those wickets at a better average. He then went off the boil for a long time where his average will be worse and less wickets being taken. They will average out at those statistics obviously but Harmison is a lot less consistent than Freddie nonetheless. Freddie's average at Cardiff was 31.5 (37 & 26) & Lords was 34 (4 & 30 n.o.) but I take your point. However, although I can see what your saying about consistency the fact is that Harmison, at his best, can do a very good job and his county performances recently have been nearing his form of old. Fortunately, it doesn't look as if we are going to have to find out as Freddie says he thinks he'll be OK for the rest of the series - although one never knows as injury can strike at any time. From a stats point of view Flintoff's lack of 5-fors in Tests is a mystery. 3 in 77 Tests. But the mystery extends into his First Class career as well. Tests aside, he has one solitary 5-for in 104 matches. I don't think there's any really rational explanation for that...
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Post by Tyler on Jul 21, 2009 12:46:14 GMT
Flintoff's lack of five fers in games is because he's not a full time bowler and it generally first or second change. Jesus all these bandwagon jumpers
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Post by lemonpiper on Jul 21, 2009 12:54:29 GMT
Also Flintoff isnt an opening bowler. The only true opening bowler we have is Anderson and he hasn't been doing that long. Harmison and Hoggard opening was the most feared attack in the world Good point Tyler. While Anderson doesn't have the aggression or outright pace of Flintoff he can swing it either way and is now extremely consistent on line & length (I thought he wa incredibly unlucky to not get a wicket yesterday). He & Harmison (on form) would be an opening attack to worry about.
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Post by Lukiebakercafc on Jul 21, 2009 13:08:20 GMT
I actually like Graham Onions as well - under-rated imo. A good wicket-to-wicket bowler and a useful man to have in your team.
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Post by Tyler on Jul 21, 2009 13:11:17 GMT
Onions is good as a first or second change bowler. An ideal scenario for the third test would be
Harmison Anderson Broad Onions Flintoff Swann/ Panesar
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Post by Lukiebakercafc on Jul 21, 2009 13:14:37 GMT
Disagree - a 6 man bowling attack is not the way to go and Flintoff's batting isn't good enough to count him as a batsman as well. That attck would mean Prior at 5, Flintoff at 6 and Broad at 7 - that is not a good position to be in batting-wise. If you mean one of those bowlers as 12th man then yes i agree with that.
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Post by Tyler on Jul 21, 2009 13:28:01 GMT
I put 6 jst for the possibility of Flintoff not being up to it.
It'd be a case of Broad/Onions
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Post by Bismarck on Jul 21, 2009 14:17:03 GMT
Surely Steyn is the best fast bowler in the world?
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Post by lemonpiper on Jul 21, 2009 14:31:40 GMT
I actually like Graham Onions as well - under-rated imo. A good wicket-to-wicket bowler and a useful man to have in your team. Quite agree Luke - and Ryan Sidebotham rarely lets us down either. In fact, he has a better Test average than either Freddie or Harmison.
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Post by Tyler on Jul 21, 2009 16:37:17 GMT
But played far less games.
I'm not sure about who is actually the best fast bowler although Steyn is definately up there. Infact a month ago people would've said Mitchell Johnson
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Post by lemonpiper on Jul 21, 2009 18:43:10 GMT
Lets hope he doesn't regain that tag untill after the series has finished!
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Post by Tyler on Jul 21, 2009 18:48:26 GMT
He's been desperately out of form. You can argue that the best bowler tag came off his demolishing South Africa both home and away but English pitches and conditions are totally different and it can be hard playing in your first ashes series without knowing the conditions well.
I'm surprised at Phil Hughes though. He's been playing here since April
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Post by lemonpiper on Jul 21, 2009 19:43:37 GMT
Fair point Tyler. I guess South African pitches would be more similar to Australia - dry & hard.
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Post by Tyler on Jul 21, 2009 20:00:51 GMT
They'd be almost identical.
I suppose thats the beauty of English cricket. Any pitch can be created. Rarely in Australia and SA would you find slow, low wickets or ones that turn alot, whereas any pitch can be made here.
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Post by Desktop Hoggy on Jul 22, 2009 14:53:45 GMT
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Post by Lukiebakercafc on Jul 22, 2009 15:50:23 GMT
Not good news. Although i am more concerned that this means Bell will be playing than Pietersen missing out. I'd have Rob Key or even Joe Denly in there but then I'm biased.
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Post by Desktop Hoggy on Jul 22, 2009 16:56:26 GMT
Not good news. Although i am more concerned that this means Bell will be playing than Pietersen missing out. I'd have Rob Key or even Joe Denly in there but then I'm biased. Good shouts there as Denly is a steady batsman while Key is an experienced campaigner and a character who can wind up Ponting further. The only positive about Bell is that he can play no3, Bopara is better playing at no5 as he doesn't have the defensive attributes to play at 3. Bops can rack up a huge score whilst the ball is old.
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