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Post by Bismarck on Jan 5, 2008 1:08:05 GMT
I was born ready Ben.....
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Post by hallmackem on Jan 5, 2008 1:11:21 GMT
I'd like to formally distance myself from this. I only find it interesting because of what it originally stood for. www.venganza.org/
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Post by Bismarck on Jan 5, 2008 1:17:54 GMT
Hey....not as bad as Scientology?
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Post by hallmackem on Jan 5, 2008 1:20:41 GMT
It's not a real religion Bismarck, the FSM is a parody created as a protest against the teaching of creationism in schools.
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Post by vplgringo on Jan 5, 2008 1:28:44 GMT
I think its great and its funny to read some of the things christians write about a wee take. You know some of the most intolerant people on this earth are religious and quite a few are of the christian faith
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Post by Bismarck on Jan 5, 2008 1:28:53 GMT
Arh I see......very clever....
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Post by hallmackem on Jan 22, 2008 16:54:52 GMT
Thought this might be relevant to the discussion, it's called Pascal's Wager. What are your thoughts on it?
..."God is, or He is not." But to which side shall we incline? Reason can decide nothing here. There is an infinite chaos which separated us. A game is being played at the extremity of this infinite distance where heads or tails will turn up. What will you wager? According to reason, you can do neither the one thing nor the other; according to reason, you can defend neither of the propositions.
Do not, then, reprove for error those who have made a choice; for you know nothing about it. "No, but I blame them for having made, not this choice, but a choice; for again both he who chooses heads and he who chooses tails are equally at fault, they are both in the wrong. The true course is not to wager at all."
Yes; but you must wager. It is not optional. You are embarked. Which will you choose then? Let us see. Since you must choose, let us see which interests you least. You have two things to lose, the true and the good; and two things to stake, your reason and your will, your knowledge and your happiness; and your nature has two things to shun, error and misery. Your reason is no more shocked in choosing one rather than the other, since you must of necessity choose. This is one point settled. But your happiness? Let us weigh the gain and the loss in wagering that God is. Let us estimate these two chances. If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing. Wager, then, without hesitation that He is. "That is very fine. Yes, I must wager; but I may perhaps wager too much." Let us see. Since there is an equal risk of gain and of loss, if you had only to gain two lives, instead of one, you might still wager. But if there were three lives to gain, you would have to play (since you are under the necessity of playing), and you would be imprudent, when you are forced to play, not to chance your life to gain three at a game where there is an equal risk of loss and gain. But there is an eternity of life and happiness. And this being so, if there were an infinity of chances, of which one only would be for you, you would still be right in wagering one to win two, and you would act stupidly, being obliged to play, by refusing to stake one life against three at a game in which out of an infinity of chances there is one for you, if there were an infinity of an infinitely happy life to gain. But there is here an infinity of an infinitely happy life to gain, a chance of gain against a finite number of chances of loss, and what you stake is finite.
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Post by Bismarck on Jan 26, 2008 14:26:30 GMT
So.....If you believe, and God exists, you gain everything. If you disbelieve, and God exists, you lose everything......is that right?
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Post by stealth1039 on Jan 27, 2008 13:18:24 GMT
So you have nothing to lose in believing - but please keep it to yourself
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Post by Wolvensam on Jan 27, 2008 15:00:08 GMT
The Spaghetti Monster is god!
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Post by hallmackem on Jan 27, 2008 22:58:26 GMT
That's it, but that raises the question 'Are you believing for the right reasons?' Surely believing just because you want to win the wager is shallow and if a God did exist he wouldn't reward you for that.
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Post by hallmackem on Jan 28, 2008 1:06:51 GMT
Anoter thing to add here.
One word to throw God's existence into doubt, it deals with the new Christian theory of intelligent design and how it is utter bullplop.
So one word:
Complexity!!!!
If I'm not mistaken, Christianity does not support evolution, because if you prove evolution, you prove there is no God.
Evolution does not need a creator. It only needs eons of time and slight beneficial mutations.
Evolution needs no God because it needs only time and the quest for survival, as the dynamic mechanism to drive incremental adaptation.
With that said, heres the proof there is no God:
If you have an all-powerful God, why would he take time to make things complex, when he should have the power to begin from ultimate complexity to start!?
Think about it. If you prove evolution is true, which human species variation proves, why would God have started us from an origin of simplicity?
Random changes and time starts with simplicity. Reason knows a mighty GOD would start from ultimate complexity because he can!
The ultimate conclusion is obvious:
There is no God, only eons of time and the everyday seen mechanism of survival at work!
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Post by Bismarck on Jan 28, 2008 11:09:48 GMT
There is a simple answer,of sorts,there Ben.....
God has placed the Evolutionary Theory there....it's a test of faith.
For example....the bones of dinosaurs that at dug up were put there by God as a direct test of his existance.....why make 1000 species of wasp?What is their their function......why let us evolve to this technological age when we were just as happy 10,000 years ago sitting there making clay pots?
A test of faith?
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Post by hallmackem on Jan 28, 2008 11:54:53 GMT
God placing the Evolutionary theory here would be a direct contradiction of that part in genesis saying God created man in his own image. Well we aren't the same as when we were first created.
The variations in Wasp species, and all species for that matter are due to environmental factors.
That's natural selection, the ones who can't hack it die out, don't reproduce and as a result, the genetic trait that didn't allow them to survive doesn't get passed on. The strong ones do survive and the traits that allow them to survive get passed on. Eg' wading birds, the ones with the longest legs and longest beaks compete for food better, they survive and pass these traits on. Very gardually beak and leg length will increase.
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Post by hallmackem on Jan 28, 2008 11:57:10 GMT
Also, no Dinosaur bones have ever been found, fossils are not bones, they are mineralised copies. That went throught natural processes on this Earth.
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Post by Bismarck on Jan 28, 2008 12:00:27 GMT
I am just putting a point across the if God is this all powerful omnipotent being,he is perfectly capable of making a mineralised copy of bones etc as a test of our collective faith?
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Post by hallmackem on Jan 28, 2008 12:12:53 GMT
Why would he? I thought he was a loving God who wants us all to be in heaven with him. Why would he jeapordise that by playing entrapment with us?
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Post by likeasharkinafunnyhat on Jan 28, 2008 13:45:11 GMT
Of course there is a God, haven't you seen Bruce Almighty?
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Post by hallmackem on Jan 28, 2008 17:46:32 GMT
Of course there is a God, haven't you seen Bruce Almighty? Oh, i thought that was Morgan Freeman. The fact that God was carnated and Bruce saw his face in that film is a contradiction of the Bible. Man can't look upon his face and live.
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Post by Bismarck on Jan 28, 2008 18:40:15 GMT
Surely there is a test of faith everywhere Ben....when a loved one dies early in his/her life through an accident....your faith is severely tested....would you agree?
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Post by hallmackem on Jan 28, 2008 21:20:35 GMT
Sorry, wouldn't know, i've never had any faith...
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Post by Bismarck on Jan 29, 2008 16:23:26 GMT
Oh I see.....each to his own Ben.....
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Post by hallmackem on Feb 15, 2008 13:14:40 GMT
Theres 5 major religions,only one of them can surely be the right religion, which has led me to the opinion that there is no such thing as god, its all a state of mind, and people choose to believe what they want in order to feel happier and more secure within themselves. I have nothing against any faith that people wish to follow, im sure they all have their reasons, even i was thinking about turning to god a few years ago when my life was in a mess, but i have now come to my conclusons about it and am very happy within myself to have the belief i can get throuh life without the need to believe in something or someone that may or more likely not exist. I have to disagree with your point about only one religion being possibly right. For arguments sake, we'll say there is a God. If this God turned out to be the God Christians believe in then Christianity would be right. However, this would mean two other religions are also right. Judaism and Islam. All three of the worlds major religions worship the same God, the God of Abraham.
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Post by hallmackem on Feb 15, 2008 13:22:28 GMT
You missed the point of the "gold cross" Ben.I was merely using it as a common point of reference to indicate "wealth and riches". Incidentally,ancient man worshiped the moon or the sun well before the concept of religion,I do not think it was anything to do with power.... Also,Darwin pointed out to us through the Origin of the Species that not only were we descended from apes,we formed hierarchal societies like apes...today's world is just an improved version of an ape-like society...If you study Chimpanzees you will see most aspects of modern society. Also,non of you have answered my question.....you cannot simply dismiss the fact that where did this all come from....trillions and trillions of stars weighing billions of tons.....from nothing....I cannot comprehend it myself...can you...? Olly-I agree mate-move it to the debating chamber old pal.... You need to remember that we aren't descended from the apes around today. We evolved from a common ancestor.
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Post by hallmackem on Feb 22, 2008 10:25:21 GMT
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Post by arover on Feb 22, 2008 15:29:40 GMT
Sorry, wouldn't know, i've never had any faith... You need some faith to believe that the likes of Andy Cole and lazy bastard Yorke can help to keep you in the Premiership.
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Post by hallmackem on Feb 27, 2008 10:31:34 GMT
Here are some of the arguments of Oxford professor for the public understanding of science, author of best selling book 'The God Delusion' and prominent Atheist Richard Dawkins.
Society & Culture has put forward many Gods, Theists believe either in one God or several depending on which religion they follow. If we use Christianity, Judaism and Islam as examples (because they all believe in the same God) then how can they say with absolute certainty that their God is real? Why is their God real but the likes of Vishnu, Apollo, Zeus, Thor and Amun Ra are not. The answer is we are all Atheists with respect to some Gods, it's just that some people believe in one less God than you.
The Flying Teapot. This strictly speaking is an analogy created by the philosopher Bertrand Russel but Dawkins is a fine exponent of its premise.
God can never be totally disproven as this goes against the principles of Science. The door is always left open for new evidence in Science. However, the fact that God can never be disproven does not mean he is real. Let's say that someone claimed a teapot orbits the Sun, nobody could prove or disprove this because we don't have telescopes powerfull enough to see it. So someone could always claim it was there. However, only a lunatic would claim to believe in it just because we can't disprove it. Now perhaps we should really all be Agnostic but in practise we are all teapot Atheists. Now it gets to the point where tribal leaders all say that the teapot is there, we hand down stories of the teapot through the generations and we write a book that tells us it is there. Now everyone believes in the flying teapot and someone who doesn't believe in the teapot is considered an eccentric or even mad. Logic and reasoning have been turned on their heads. There are any number of things we can't disprove. We can't disprove fairies, unicorns or hobgoblins but that isn't reason to suppose they're real is it?
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Post by Bismarck on Feb 27, 2008 16:22:39 GMT
The census seems happy to compile that our society has approximately 1000 satanists, 2000 witches, 192 druids, and has decided that Jedi, should be "outside scope". We are not the only church of the Jedi. There are several Jedi religious orders throughout the world. Our church alone has been running for several years. We have calls from our ordained members to become marriage cellebrants. We like all other churches in NZ need to provision for the future. Do we need to build more or less churces for our congregations? Should Jedi principles be tought in our schools along side other religious teachings? Churches like all other institutions need access to these statistics in a seemless, non censored manor. There should not be an "response outside of scope" category. If the answer is understood, then the result must be categorised. Otherwise, we have to ask the question, why is our government interested in collecting these statistics? Is it for the benefit of churches in the community like ours? Or do they have alterior motives? Faiths all over the world have been persecuted regarding their religions by their own governments many times in recent history. The definition of "response outside of scope" provided by the census is "This category is used for responses that are positively identified (that is, the meaning and intent are clear) but which clearly fall outside the scope of the classification/topic as defined in the standard." If 20000 odd people indicate that their religion is "jedi" and that a Jedi church exists, then how could this answer fall outside the scope of the topic? Who defines the standard? The census data for religions as below, see how many strange and odd religions are counted by the census beaureu, yet Jedis are lumped in with the "response outside of scope" answer, even though it has been hinted that 20000 people answered Jedi. No Religion 1,297,104 Buddhist nfd 52,158 Zen Buddhist 78 Buddhist nec 156 Christian nfd 186,234 Adventist nfd 288 Christadelphian 1,785 Seventh Day Adventist 13,815 Worldwide Church of God 255 Adventist nec 51 Anglican 554,925 Chinese Christian 135 Korean Christian 60 Baptist nfd 56,175 Bible Baptist 129 Independent Baptist 291 Reformed Baptist 255 Baptist nec 69 Brethren nfd 6,666 Exclusive Brethren 2,316 Open Brethren 10,134 Plymouth Brethren 324 Brethren nec 189 Catholic nfd 507,771 Roman Catholic 858 Catholic nec 183 Church of Christ nfd 2,154 Associated Churches of Christ 624 Other Church of Christ and Churches of Christ nec 213 Evangelical 4,197 Born Again 8,217 Fundamentalist 306 Independent Evangelical Churches 1,158 Jehovah's Witnesses 17,910 Latter-day Saints 43,536 Lutheran 4,476 Methodist nfd 116,622 Tongan Methodist 4,272 Methodist nec 1,182 Orthodox nfd 8,121 Assyrian Orthodox 258 Coptic Orthodox 381 Greek Orthodox 2,586 Russian Orthodox 1,110 Serbian Orthodox 228 Orthodox nec 573 Pentecostal nfd 36,372 Apostolic Church of New Zealand 8,328 Assemblies of God 15,300 Christian Fellowship - Christian Outreach 123 Christian Revival Crusade 99 Elim 2,214 Full Gospel 1,092 Independent Pentecostal 237 New Life Centres 7,941 Revival Centres 243 United Pentecostal 369 Vineyard Christian Fellowship 1,605 Pentecostal nec 5,694 Presbyterian 385,350 Congregational 6,192 Cook Island Congregational 1,443 Samoan Congregational 3,777 Reformed 4,686 Protestant nfd 3,954 Salvation Army 11,490 Uniting/Union Church 1,308 Ecumenical 111 Christian and Missionary Alliance 300 Christian Science 234 Church of God 384 Commonwealth Covenant Church 18 Liberal Catholic 111 Metropolitan 54 Nazarene 501 Religious Society of Friends (Quaker) 1,146 Unitarian 396 Christian nec 648 Hindu nfd 63,540 Hare Krishna 372 Yoga 297 Hindu nec 351 Islam/Muslim nfd 35,856 Sufi 177 Islam/Muslim nec 120 Judaism/Jewish 6,858 Mäori Christian nfd 219 Ratana 50,565 Ringatü 16,419 Mäori Christian nec 360 New Age nfd 666 Church of Scientology 357 Nature and Earth Based Religions nfd 774 Animist 207 Druid 192 Pantheist 366 Wiccan 2,082 Nature and Earth Based Religions nec 3,756 Satanism 1,167 Spiritualist 7,743 Rastafarianism 1,383 Other New Age Religions nec 1,491 Other Religion nfd 4,830 Baha'i 2,772 Chinese Religions nfd 99 Confucianism 48 Taoism 756 Chinese Religions nec 12 Jainism 111 Japanese Religion nfd 30 Mahikari 135 Shinto 195 Tenrikyo 12 Japanese Religion nec 12 Mäori Religion nfd 1,689 Hauhau 609 Mäori Religion nec 129 Sikh 9,507 Theism 2,202 Zoroastrian 1,071 Unification Church (Moonist) 105 Other Religions nec 153 Don't Know 1,743 Object to answering 242,610 Religion Unidentifiable 10,653 Response Outside Scope 30,945 Not Stated 249,711
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Post by arover on Feb 28, 2008 11:51:02 GMT
That's a lot of crutches.
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Post by arover on Feb 28, 2008 11:51:57 GMT
Only 1,300 odd Rastas?
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