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Post by Mark Cunningham on Oct 19, 2007 16:50:15 GMT
Should this be moved to the debate thread, because this topic creates quite a stir.
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Post by vplgringo on Oct 19, 2007 16:50:39 GMT
I think religion is basically just a moral code regardless of which route you follow but, being a cynic, I also think it started as a means of keeping slaves & peasants in order i.e. You might have a really crap life right now but look what you've got to look forwards to when you die- if you behave. Very very good point, I have always wondered did anyone else think this way. The church teaches you to be content with ur life, no matter how crap, because in the after life u will be rewarded. This only helps keep the downtrodden down which enables the rich bastards in the world to stay rich. As Feuerbach and Marx came to realise, religion is the original form of ideology i.e. the inversion of all things. Man created god but somehow along the way it got confused so that god created man while at the same time bestowing mankinds greatest attributes on him. Thus humans become alienated from these attributes and it seems like we no longer posses them. We then go cap in hand and ask god to gives us the strength to acquire these attributes that are originally man's.
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Post by hallmackem on Oct 19, 2007 16:59:21 GMT
About keeping people in line, religion was definately Man's idea. Rulers of kingdoms and empires needed to keep there people in line. So they got together all of the educated folk who knew how to read and told them to interpret these holy books (also written by men) in such a way that they would end up brainwashing the people into believing that their leaders had a divine right from 'God' to rule over them.
Religions, except the more philosophical ones such as Buddhism, are simply the embodiement of man's desire for power.
"Knowledge is a powerful thing." It certainly was for the church.
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Post by stealth1039 on Oct 19, 2007 17:01:57 GMT
Interesting Gringo. I've never read philosophy but that's a fascinating view point.
Following on from "keeping the downtrodden down" maybe we should be celebrating the fact that religion is on a slippery slope?
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Post by Bismarck on Oct 19, 2007 17:27:01 GMT
You missed the point of the "gold cross" Ben.I was merely using it as a common point of reference to indicate "wealth and riches".
Incidentally,ancient man worshiped the moon or the sun well before the concept of religion,I do not think it was anything to do with power....
Also,Darwin pointed out to us through the Origin of the Species that not only were we descended from apes,we formed hierarchal societies like apes...today's world is just an improved version of an ape-like society...If you study Chimpanzees you will see most aspects of modern society.
Also,non of you have answered my question.....you cannot simply dismiss the fact that where did this all come from....trillions and trillions of stars weighing billions of tons.....from nothing....I cannot comprehend it myself...can you...?
Olly-I agree mate-move it to the debating chamber old pal....
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Post by hallmackem on Oct 19, 2007 17:44:15 GMT
Yes but as you say that was before the concept of religion. It quickly became a means by which leaders could get the masses to do their bidding.
Aztecs sacrificing human beings to 'honour' their gods.
When ancient man worshipped the sun it was because they understood the links between it's presense and their existence. They didn't understand that it was a ball of gas, they thought it was some kind of higher being and if it was appeased it would keep them alive. They thought the same about the moon, they didn't realise it was just a rock that reflects sunlight.
Religion in the form we know today is very different to the pagan religions that ancient man had. Up until relatively recently (the last couple of hundred years or so) very few people were literate. This meant that those who were literate would often end up in the church, so as they were the only ones who could read the bible people would turn uo in droves and be told how to live and that their ruler wa given his/her power by god.
Why do you think the Catholic Church refused to allow the Bible to be printed in any other language than Latin for so long? Because they didn't want more and more people to be able to interpret their own meanings from it. In short they wanted to retain their power and influence.
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Post by Lukiebakercafc on Oct 19, 2007 17:49:49 GMT
Religion may have been invented to keep people in line but it has evolved from there. I don't think the catholic faith has to be taken literally or to every word. For example when i have sex i may well use contraception, it doesn't make me any less catholic. AIDS can also not be blamed on them, as who says the contraception was available or sufficient enough to stop it. The catholic church is a scapegoat for people desperate for someone to blame the wrld's problems on and picking holes in their every move. What do you expect to happen by attacking the catholic faith - it will disband? ?? The masses will merely find a new scapegoat for everything. The catholic church is flawed, as is every institution and person, i don't understand why everyone expects perfection. To the point of god, i thnk it is irrelevant whether He actually exists or not. The idea is a comfort and an inspiration to try and be a better person. The whole idea, for me, is symbolic as is the catholic faith itself. Not every teaching or reading needs to be taken literally, the premises behind the ideas are what is important. In my opinion the catholic church comes in for unecessary flak.
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Post by hallmackem on Oct 19, 2007 18:04:06 GMT
Religion may have been invented to keep people in line but it has evolved from there. I don't think the catholic faith has to be taken literally or to every word. For example when i have sex i may well use contraception, it doesn't make me any less catholic. AIDS can also not be blamed on them, as who says the contraception was available or sufficient enough to stop it. The catholic church is a scapegoat for people desperate for someone to blame the wrld's problems on and picking holes in their every move. What do you expect to happen by attacking the catholic faith - it will disband? ?? The masses will merely find a new scapegoat for everything. The catholic church is flawed, as is every institution and person, i don't understand why everyone expects perfection. To the point of god, i thnk it is irrelevant whether He actually exists or not. The idea is a comfort and an inspiration to try and be a better person. The whole idea, for me, is symbolic as is the catholic faith itself. Not every teaching or reading needs to be taken literally, the premises behind the ideas are what is important. In my opinion the catholicchurch comes in for unecessary falk. Well using contraception would be against one of the fundamentals of Catholiscism, that sex is for the procreation of children. And of course AIDs would still be present today but it certainly wouldn't be as widespread if contaception was used more often. It's not just the Catholic Church, religion as a hole has been the cause of a great deal of the worlds problems. If religion didn't exist it would mean one less thing to fight over. Yes religion has evolved, now virtually everyone can read and the bible is printed in almost every language people can draw there own conclusions from it. So the church now has to offer incentives to it's followers rather than threats like it used to.
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Post by Lukiebakercafc on Oct 19, 2007 18:15:23 GMT
If religion didn't exist, people would find another thing to fight over. It's not religion that's the problem, it's human nature.
Contraception not being used is because it is not widely available, not known about, not because Catholicism is against it.
Incidentally, contraception is not one of the main preaching points of Catholicism, i have never heard it being taught in church. The only people who make a big issue out of it are non-catholics who are looking to increase the blame they can place on catholicism for the world' problems. Discretion tends to be the best policy.
I'm also glad to see that your disklike (prejudice could be used but it's a strong word) stretches to all religion as opposed to just the catholic faith... You seem to have a slight chip on your shoulder about religion, surely it would be best to leave it alone if it leaves you alone.
Also, what incentives are being offered?? As i would like some of them if they're going.
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Post by Bismarck on Oct 19, 2007 18:24:09 GMT
Ben,your debating you corner very well......with one exception......where did the stuff you and me are made of come from....carbon,oxygen,hydrogen.....where did it come from....out of nothing....what is nothing?
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Post by Lukiebakercafc on Oct 19, 2007 18:29:44 GMT
Very good debate all round me feels. Interesting to see the other side of the coin, especially when it's debated sensibly and rationally without resorting to insults or "Prove God exists. You can't so i win."
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Post by hallmackem on Oct 19, 2007 18:34:02 GMT
Is it though, we've never had a world without religion to prove that we would be fighting over something else.
No contraception is not a main preaching but the purpose of sex is, that purpose is supposedly "for the procreation of children" using contraception obviously means that children won't be created.
The incentive is a place in heaven obviously but in this country it used to be against the law not to attend church thats where the control theory comes from and that was also the threat.
I don't have a chip on my shoulder about religion at all i just disapprove of it's materialism and it's warmongering eg' Crusades, Jihad etc'
I was baptised C of E as well. My Dad's side of the family are all Catholic, none of them practise it, not even my Grandmother from Ireland. That tells me a bit about the religion as well that some of it's followers became dissolussioned with it. My sisters were given every oppurtunity to follow the faith as well they reached their first holy communion then didn't want anything more to do with it.
Your right it's not just Catholicism that i dislike but it is the one that is most apparent to me and one that i am using as an example because i know more about it than other religions.
Just so you know i have no problem with you being a Catholic and if i've offended you at all i'm sorry, i just disgree with believing in somthing that we have no way of knowing is real.
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Post by hallmackem on Oct 19, 2007 18:37:17 GMT
Ben,your debating you corner very well......with one exception......where did the stuff you and me are made of come from....carbon,oxygen,hydrogen.....where did it come from....out of nothing....what is nothing? I'm not debating the existence of God and if i have it was inadvertant. I personally do not believe but have no proof that he doesn't. I was debating the morals of Religion as a whole and the fact that wether God exists or not it was turned into a means of control.
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Post by Bismarck on Oct 19, 2007 18:39:06 GMT
Well Luke,without wanting to sound patronising,yes this is a good debate with you,Ben and Gringo showing me that my taxes are being well spent on education....
Your well informed opinions.....yours,not you mum's or your teachers....yours.And,as you say,not an "idiot" or a "wanker" in sight....
Very good,very good indeed....I feel it is not over yet either....!!
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Post by hallmackem on Oct 19, 2007 18:45:47 GMT
We'll have to call it a night soon though, France Vs. Argentina for 3rd place any time now.
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Post by Bismarck on Oct 19, 2007 18:49:00 GMT
Ben,your debating you corner very well......with one exception......where did the stuff you and me are made of come from....carbon,oxygen,hydrogen.....where did it come from....out of nothing....what is nothing? I'm not debating the existence of God and if i have it was inadvertant. I personally do not believe but have no proof that he doesn't. I was debating the morals of Religion as a whole and the fact that wether God exists or not it was turned into a means of control. Oh don't mind me...I can only take my concept so far...I do not profess to be a genius so when I cannot go any further with the concept of something out of nothing I opt for an Omnipotent being....
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Post by Lukiebakercafc on Oct 19, 2007 18:50:46 GMT
Don't worry you have't offended me. Your last sentence is the difference between religious people and non-religious people. I have no problem in believing something which has no proof, in fact it doesn't matter to me whether it's real or not.
For me, it's all about the concept, the idea, being comforting and inspirational. The existence is irrelevant, and the idea of heaven, i believe is a state of mind, so if you help others and use God's word, it helps you to this sate of mind. It's almost like enlightenment for Buddhists, i guess, in essence, all religions are the same, so there shouldn't be War.
Of course i don't agree with the Warmongering but that is the minority causing it not the majority, i assure you. But then there is nothing i can totally agree with, everything has its flaws.
Of course, some will become disillusioned but that happens with everything, so it doesn't worry me. Everyone is entitled to believe or not believe whatever they want. Catholicism and religion may have been used for control but it is no longer, it has learned from its mistakes and moved on.
We can't change the past after all and i believe this element has gone.
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Post by hallmackem on Oct 19, 2007 18:54:07 GMT
I'm not debating the existence of God and if i have it was inadvertant. I personally do not believe but have no proof that he doesn't. I was debating the morals of Religion as a whole and the fact that wether God exists or not it was turned into a means of control. Oh don't mind me...I can only take my concept so far...I do not profess to be a genius so when I cannot go any further with the concept of something out of nothing I opt for an Omnipotent being.... Yeah thats why i din't try and explain where matter came from. I don't think anyone knows so how would i know. If i gave it some serious serious thought and read up on the subject then i may begin to understand where it came from. There must be several theorys and with at least a basic understanding i'm sure i could make a sound judgement as to which one i would go for.
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Post by Bismarck on Oct 19, 2007 18:56:55 GMT
But we could change the future young skywalker....
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Post by Lukiebakercafc on Oct 19, 2007 19:02:09 GMT
Of course we could Otto and as the future, i hope to improve it, which my Catholic faith will help me do.
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Post by Bismarck on Oct 19, 2007 19:02:31 GMT
Oh don't mind me...I can only take my concept so far...I do not profess to be a genius so when I cannot go any further with the concept of something out of nothing I opt for an Omnipotent being.... Yeah thats why i din't try and explain where matter came from. I don't think anyone knows so how would i know. If i gave it some serious serious thought and read up on the subject then i may begin to understand where it came from. There must be several theorys and with at least a basic understanding i'm sure i could make a sound judgement as to which one i would go for. Funny isn't it,I think arover made the point about how we don't know each other from Adam...we feel we can talk openly to complete strangers in cyberspace....I suggest you leave the topic until you have the time mate... Footnote:Nobody admitted to their religion as Jedi.....shame that...
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Post by petshrew on Oct 19, 2007 19:29:37 GMT
I think that beleiving in a God is like believing in Father Christmas or fairies. It doesn't bother me that people do, I just feel sorry for people who have to believe in an afterlife to have any meaning to their lives. I also believe that religious institutions are one of the major forces holding back the progress of man, one of the major causes of conflict and that they were the inventors of brainwashing. Other than that I haven't really made my mind up on this subject
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Post by vplgringo on Oct 20, 2007 23:37:57 GMT
This is a great a discusion and the great thing about discussions like this is that it helps u really think about ur stance. When someone argues against ur own position it makes u think about it, why it is u think what u do and therefore gives u a more coherent understanding of the debate.
The worst thing anyone can do is believe in something but not engage with the opposite side because it decreases ur rational understanding of ur own view.
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Post by Lukiebakercafc on Oct 21, 2007 11:07:04 GMT
Good point gringo, i think it's great to listen to the other side of the debate, especially when it's argued sensibly, rationally and thoughtfully. I can see where all of you are coming from and it's very interesting.
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Post by arover on Oct 21, 2007 15:00:55 GMT
Haven't posted on this thread before as I had not noticed it.
I speak as an ex Catholic now living in a muslim country. I was brought up as a Catholic by a god fearing mother and father but by the age of 13 or 14 I openly questioned the faith and saw far too much hypocrisy in it. Although I can clearly see that many good people espouse a faith and draw great strength and support from it organised religion is not for me.
I prefer to adhere to my own moral code and worry greatly about the great many fanatics present in the world today.
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Post by Bismarck on Oct 21, 2007 19:46:00 GMT
Are you anywhere near the fighting arover?
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Post by Lukiebakercafc on Oct 21, 2007 21:01:28 GMT
Yep, he's right in the middle of it, chucking locks of Robbie Savage's hair at them.
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Post by vplgringo on Oct 21, 2007 21:19:21 GMT
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Post by Bismarck on Oct 22, 2007 0:01:05 GMT
I think we have all done that mate....
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Post by Bismarck on Oct 22, 2007 0:02:56 GMT
Yep, he's right in the middle of it, chucking locks of Robbie Savage's hair at them. He had 2 kittens earlier on I hope he hasn't lobbe d them over too....
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