bantambuff
Reserves Player
[M:500]
Most of my friends think that I am tempermental. That's 90% temper and 10% mental
Posts: 390
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Post by bantambuff on Aug 28, 2008 14:32:45 GMT
Last nights subject for discussion down the 'Golden Fleece'
This is not a "Look at us, we are Bradford City, have you ever seen the Premier League" thread. I wouldn't post anything like that.
Given that its widely accepted by lower league football fans that the Premiership is an incredibly boring competition, would you still like to see your team compete at that level ?
We spent 2 years there (sorry, I can't start this thread without referring to it) and whilst the first season was exciting, surviving on the final day, it soon became pretty demoralising watching your team getting beaten week in, week out. A look down the fixture list would leave you wondering where the next 3 points were going to come from, and we knew we were never ever going to be able to compete at the right end of the table.
The high attendances we currently enjoy (albeit at a reduced season ticket cost) suggest that fans will turn up to watch a League 2 side winning games, more than a Premiership/Championship side getting beaten every week. I speak to various fans of Premier League sides who dislike watching their footy in a League that will never see them win anything (Middlesbrough, West Ham, Newcastle, Man City to name a few)
If you take the fact that for instance Blackburn Rovers can enjoy a full page spread in the national papers, when 23,000 turn up to watch their match, but the entire League 2 are given a 6 inch column 8 pages in basically listing who scored for which team. This is despite the fact that around 101,000 fans attend League 2 games on an average weekend. It is obvious where media loyalty lies, and League's 1 and 2 are largely trivial for the national press.
I can honestly say I have been looking forward to this season with more anticipation and excitement than any in the past few years. I don't care that its League 2. I just love watching my team being able to win matches, and would much prefer to watch them compete, and compete well, at a lower level, than turn up to get hammered every weekend.
I have far more respect for the 100 fans that might travel 200 miles to watch Chester City on a Tuesday night, than I do for 10,000 Man Utd fans paying £1,000's travelling to Moscow for a Champions League final.
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Post by Wolvensam on Aug 28, 2008 14:57:56 GMT
Do I want my team to play in the best league in the world and competing with the best this country, and the world, has to offer?
Yes.
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Post by arover on Aug 28, 2008 16:13:02 GMT
I'm happy with it, but only because the way the club has been managed and organised has meant that we can compete in the upper echelons. Admittedly with no chance of Champions League qualification.
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Post by stealth1039 on Aug 28, 2008 16:20:46 GMT
The only thing that bugs me is the "closed shop" Top 4. I love watching the best players in the world & the quality of football is incredibly exciting at times but it's a Catch 22 situation with the Champions League. You can't attract the very best players without being in it and even if you do they'll poach them but neither will you get in it without those best players. Frustrating.
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Post by hallmackem on Aug 28, 2008 16:57:26 GMT
If you take the fact that for instance Blackburn Rovers can enjoy a full page spread in the national papers, when 23,000 turn up to watch their match, but the entire League 2 are given a 6 inch column 8 pages in basically listing who scored for which team. This is despite the fact that around 101,000 fans attend League 2 games on an average weekend. Exactly, 23,000 go to one game in the Premiership. 101,000 in the whole of league two. I hope this isn't in support of the argument.
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Post by thefullback on Aug 28, 2008 17:09:17 GMT
We have prayed, hoped and waited for this season for a very long time, so the immediate answer is yes, we want to play with the big boys. We know that we will lose more matches than we win and draw put together but if we can survive for a few seasons then some fans may think that it is better to be a "big pike in a small river than a sardine in the ocean" (Courtesy of Eric Cantona) Thefullback says "survival is paramount"
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Post by Wolvensam on Aug 28, 2008 17:15:02 GMT
As for the "losing every week thing" - Sunderland and Reading have proved that if your manager is supplied with the cash to buy the quality you can actually stay up (albeit Reading did get relegated eventually, but I cannot see that happening to the Mackems). IMO Sunderland are going the right about it by buying players to survive in the first season, then taking the next step up the ladder and buying the players to challenge for the top half of the table.
In the lower leagues your best players will always get snapped up by the big boys because at the end of the day you are a poxy club playing in a poxy league - you're just a stepping stone. For the most part it's not like that in the Premiership because they are getting regular football in the best league in the world. I would much rather be playing Manchester United at Old Trafford or Chelsea at Stamford Bridge than Watford at Vicarage Road or Plymouth at Home Park!
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Post by hallmackem on Aug 28, 2008 17:43:02 GMT
All winning the championsip proves is that you're the 21st best club in England.
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bantambuff
Reserves Player
[M:500]
Most of my friends think that I am tempermental. That's 90% temper and 10% mental
Posts: 390
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Post by bantambuff on Aug 29, 2008 7:37:38 GMT
If I could turn the clock back, I would make Wetheralll's header hit the bar rather than go in, to keep us in the Greedy League back in 99. You could argue that goal caused us to fall so far and so quickly. We have the potential to be a reasonable championship side, but will never be able to challenge at the top of the 'greedy league'. Seven years, three relegations and two administrations later, we are just starting to turn things around, maing a profit last season for the first time since our Greedy League days.
Unlike the Premiership, where it doesn't appear there will ever be a team that breaks into the top few without a billionaire bankrolling them, I always feel a "poxy club in a poxy league" can gatecrash the Championship.
There are often some surprise teams up there. Nobody thought Bristol City would come so close last year. I know they fell at the final hurdle, but a couple more results and they could have found themselves in the Greedy League, and most teams can aspire to match Bristol City.
Had they got to the Premiership, thats where the downward turn would have begun, which is largely my point.
Whilst most fans would say 1 season in the Premiership would be great for the experience, any more than that would be draining on the crowds and the enjoyment for most. I wouldn't enjoy supporting Man City at this moment in time, there is something very smelly happening there. I guess integrity is not as important as survival for some.
Our home gates will average 13-14k in the Khazi League this season, better than a lot of clubs in the Championship, and better than those in the Greedy League if you take away the glory hunter supporters.
Call me unambitious but the Championship is now as far as I would like us to go.
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Post by Wolvensam on Aug 29, 2008 8:08:00 GMT
But do Bradford City have a waiting list for season tickets like a majority of Premier League clubs and, infact, some Championship? They can't all be glory hunters if they're prepared to fork out over £1,000 on a ST surely?
I personally hate the bloody Championship - it's a division full of mediocre bordering poo teams, it's almost impossible to get out of unless you have a bit of luck. Even then when you get up it's very hard to establish yourself unless you have a £40m cash injection.
Let's just say I would much rather be heading down to Molineux tomorrow to watch Carlos Tevez and Wayne Rooney in the flesh than Robert Earnshaw and Nathan Tyson!
Bristol City last year proved what an absolutely dog poo league this is, and I for one can't wait to see the bloody back of it - hopefully for good. Mind you having been in this league for pretty much 23 odd years (bar one season) I suppose it would make me a bit biased.
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bantambuff
Reserves Player
[M:500]
Most of my friends think that I am tempermental. That's 90% temper and 10% mental
Posts: 390
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Post by bantambuff on Aug 29, 2008 8:48:18 GMT
Sorry Sam, we'll not agree on this one. Maybe it's down to our respective experiences in the Premiership, and what has happened to our clubs since.
It was amazing to go to the Premier League grounds and watch the team I love up against some of the best clubs in the world. However I didn't like the added extras that come with it, for example, the glory supporters that undoubtedly start watching you. The money that the Premier League demands- clubs become businesses and it stops being about the football. It was nice to experience, but I prefer the passion and commitment of League 2.
Of course any fan would love to see their team reaching their potential and the away days are very good, visiting the top teams in the country and some of the grounds. However, with the ever increasing price of tickets, what average fan could afford to shell out £100 for an away game at Old Trafford, then £140 to Newcastle a week later, at £40 a pop at most premiership grounds, only the better off football fans can afford to support their team week in, week out. Although id love to see City in the prem, I love to be able to afford to follow my team on nearly all the away journeys.
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Post by SaintTim on Aug 29, 2008 8:55:26 GMT
As i have stated on many occasions i cant wait to get out of this crappy league,the football is more often than not lump the ball up to the big brute up front & hope he gets it in the back of the net.And as for some of the refs they are just a joke.I'm not saying that i hate the Championship i just hate being in it & until we start playing some half decent football on a regular basis then this is probably where we will stay. I cant believe that anyone would not want there team to play in the top flight as surly that is where the best football is played,& with a good manager & a bit of backing you should stand a chance of staying there for a while. The Premiership is the only place to be in my eyes & surly most fans would wish they where there "i know i would"
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Post by Wolvensam on Aug 29, 2008 9:02:28 GMT
Tim has hit the nail on the head for me.
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Post by hallmackem on Aug 29, 2008 10:04:53 GMT
It was nice to experience, but I prefer the passion and commitment of League 2. Try matching the passion and commitment of last years Sunderland squad. Yes we spent £40 million but it was mainly spent on poo players. Nothing but grit and a will to win kept us up. Now we're kicking on and showing what can be achieved if you really are that passionate and commited.
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Post by arover on Aug 29, 2008 10:16:45 GMT
Hey Bantam you have a point and I notice that all the members who are disagreeing with you support so called "bigger" clubs than Bratfut. Wolves, Sunderland and Southampton are all clubs whose supporters feel that their rightful place is in the top division and will feel humiliated if they are languishing in the Championship. I'm not sure that most Bratfut supporters view things that way and there probably lies the difference.
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bantambuff
Reserves Player
[M:500]
Most of my friends think that I am tempermental. That's 90% temper and 10% mental
Posts: 390
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Post by bantambuff on Aug 29, 2008 10:27:08 GMT
Howdo Rover. I guess alot of it is down to realistic current aspirations. Fans of the Championship clubs only aspiration is to play in the Premiership. It would be interesting to hear the views of the other lower division clubs.
I am not saying I am happy to see us settle in League 2, only that I prefer us to be in a division where we can compete with the rest of the League, be that League 2, League 1 or the Championship.
Seeing us go to Stamford Bridge may have been exciting the first time, but once the novelty had worn off, it wasn't great watching us get hammered every week.
For instance I would prefer to see us go to Norwich and win to move into the top 6 of the Championship (seems a distant dream at this moment in time), than to go to Old Trafford and lose 6 nil to fall further adrift at the bottom of the Premiership.
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Post by arover on Aug 29, 2008 10:45:00 GMT
I fully understand that.
I have a mate who was upset when Jack Walker invested his millions into the club, he saw it as his club and didn't want Uncle Jack interfering with it.
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Post by stealth1039 on Aug 29, 2008 11:11:06 GMT
Very valid point from Arover about expectations matching the club you support. If Spurs were struggling to avoid relegation every year I would not be so keen on being in the Premiership but, even when mid table was the best hope, we had enough wins to keep us optimistic. How does Olly feel about the Prem and Ben & FTMlad how did you feel the last time you were promoted?
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Post by SaintTim on Aug 29, 2008 11:41:25 GMT
Hey Bantam you have a point and I notice that all the members who are disagreeing with you support so called "bigger" clubs than Bratfut. Wolves, Sunderland and Southampton are all clubs whose supporters feel that their rightful place is in the top division and will feel humiliated if they are languishing in the Championship. I'm not sure that most Bratfut supporters view things that way and there probably lies the difference. I have to say i disagree with you there Arover as i don't feel our rightful place is in the premiership,yes we have a premier league ground & facility's but we played some shocking football the year we got relegated (throwing away games in the dying minutes) & finished in the bottom 3 so deserved to go down.I also don't feel humiliated by being in the Championship but more so by the way my club has been run by the so called experts in the board room.I must admit tho the first season in the Championship i did feel we shouldn't be there & i found the standard of the football shocking compared to the Premiership,yes it can be exciting but that excitement doesn't compare to beating say Chelsea,Manu or Liverpool etc etc......And even fighting it out in the bottom of the Prem is surly better than being in the Championship in my eyes...Unless your supported Derby last year...
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Post by hallmackem on Aug 29, 2008 13:10:27 GMT
Very valid point from Arover about expectations matching the club you support. If Spurs were struggling to avoid relegation every year I would not be so keen on being in the Premiership but, even when mid table was the best hope, we had enough wins to keep us optimistic. How does Olly feel about the Prem and Ben & FTMlad how did you feel the last time you were promoted? Obviously I was extatic, but I realised that it was only the start of a long journey. As I say, 1st place in the fizzy pop league is 21st place in English football. Premiership football should be a par score for a club like Sunderland with our current set up.
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Post by Wolvensam on Aug 29, 2008 13:11:40 GMT
Hopefully Mick McCarthy won't take us the same way if we get promoted this season. Then again he should get more to spend here than he did at Sunderland, where he only spent about £6m IIRC..
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Post by stealth1039 on Aug 29, 2008 13:19:15 GMT
Very valid point from Arover about expectations matching the club you support. If Spurs were struggling to avoid relegation every year I would not be so keen on being in the Premiership but, even when mid table was the best hope, we had enough wins to keep us optimistic. How does Olly feel about the Prem and Ben & FTMlad how did you feel the last time you were promoted? Obviously I was extatic, but I realised that it was only the start of a long journey. As I say, 1st place in the fizzy pop league is 21st place in English football. Premiership football should be a par score for a club like Sunderland with our current set up. I'd agree that Sunderland probably should be top flight but it must have been pretty depressing losing week in week out & setting that awful record that Derby rescued you from. I also think Wolves should be there given their history but no one has a god given right and most of the top teams have had their bad moments in their histories as well as the good.
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Post by Wolvensam on Aug 29, 2008 13:24:46 GMT
I also think Wolves should be there given their history but no one has a god given right and most of the top teams have had their bad moments in their histories as well as the good. Certainly have the facilities and the support to be up there.
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bantambuff
Reserves Player
[M:500]
Most of my friends think that I am tempermental. That's 90% temper and 10% mental
Posts: 390
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Post by bantambuff on Aug 29, 2008 13:44:06 GMT
The thought of Bratfud getting back to the Premier League is a fantasy anyway.
Therefore the argument of "no, I don't want to get thrashed every week" becomes a redundant point.
In the same way we will be going all out for promotion from the Khazi League, if you are in the Championship, and you are gunning for promotion, you wouldn't want your team not to get promoted, would you?
I do think the aspirations of most clubs at our level, is for Championship football though.
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Post by andynufcfan on Aug 29, 2008 13:45:09 GMT
i love the epl myself and i dont mind seeing us spend 20 million per year as were in a 52,000 seater stadium, however i think mike ashley is a god for us as freddy shepherd almost put us in an impossible situation, however unlike bradford we were saved by the right man i could be sitting here if freddy shepherd stayed in charge and made us bankrup and then id be bitter and twisted about the premiership too
Having said all of that though its still the place to be even though it put you in impossible debt and unfortunately paid the price i bet the memories were unforgettable and i bet you wouldnt change them for the world i dont think anythings wrong with premiership apart from two things 1. sky digital 2. the top 4.
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Post by hallmackem on Aug 29, 2008 13:50:12 GMT
i love the epl myself and i dont mind seeing us spend 20 million per year as were in a 52,000 seater stadium, however i think mike ashley is a god for us as freddy shepherd almost put us in an impossible situation, however unlike bradford we were saved by the right man i could be sitting here if freddy shepherd stayed in charge and made us bankrup and then id be bitter and twisted about the premiership too Having said all of that though its still the place to be even though it put you in impossible debt and unfortunately paid the price i bet the memories were unforgettable and i bet you wouldnt change them for the world i dont think anythings wrong with premiership apart from two things 1. sky digital 2. the top 4. Newcastle have spent a bit more than £20 million a year mate.
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Post by andynufcfan on Aug 29, 2008 15:04:34 GMT
i love the epl myself and i dont mind seeing us spend 20 million per year as were in a 52,000 seater stadium, however i think mike ashley is a god for us as freddy shepherd almost put us in an impossible situation, however unlike bradford we were saved by the right man i could be sitting here if freddy shepherd stayed in charge and made us bankrup and then id be bitter and twisted about the premiership too Having said all of that though its still the place to be even though it put you in impossible debt and unfortunately paid the price i bet the memories were unforgettable and i bet you wouldnt change them for the world i dont think anythings wrong with premiership apart from two things 1. sky digital 2. the top 4. Newcastle have spent a bit more than £20 million a year mate. not really apart from that season were souness went mad and spent loads on luque and boumsong and bought owen for 17 million quid id say 20 million was the average plus now i think we will cut down on spending too much too.
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Post by JoeLatics on Oct 7, 2008 20:02:05 GMT
Personally, I prefer to be able to sing 'we are top of the league' than be languishing somewhere around 15th in the Prem.
Also, the second we got promoted, all the "we've been fans for ages, but couldnt make the games, but just by coincidence, I can now we're in the premier league" fans would snap up all the tickets, so I'd definitly rather play in the Champ/L1 for that reason.
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Post by Lukiebakercafc on Oct 7, 2008 20:44:48 GMT
Rubbish Joe - you'd turn down the chance of Prem football... why do you support your club then? They want to make the Prem, so should you. Do you want them to be top of the league for two thirds of the season and then fade so you stay in the same league - what's the point... the goal is and always should be promotion...
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