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Post by arover on Mar 19, 2008 11:58:48 GMT
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Post by Bismarck on Mar 19, 2008 14:25:28 GMT
I wonder what the athiest viewpoint is from our regulars?
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Post by Lukiebakercafc on Mar 19, 2008 15:21:49 GMT
Frankly i think that people take what they want from religion (i know i do), so i'm not sure it really matters what the bible's view on homosexuality are. I have absolutely no problems with gays at all, i'm not gay but if i was i wouldn't feel shamed at all. If the bible does disagree with this view then i just discount it as another opinion that's different to mine.
There is no way that i'm going to agree with every view or rule of the catholic church but i feel i benefit from being a catholic by getting comfort, some very good ideas and principles on how you should try to live and i take what i want from it.
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Post by hallmackem on Mar 19, 2008 18:11:17 GMT
It's got absolutely nothing to do with me what two people get up to in their bedroom.
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Post by Bismarck on Mar 19, 2008 18:30:37 GMT
It's got absolutely nothing to do with me what two people get up to in their bedroom. What about in public?
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Post by hallmackem on Mar 19, 2008 19:05:15 GMT
Well that's against the law so it isn't really my place to say.
Let's just say i'd rather neither happened on my doorsrtep.
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Post by Bismarck on Mar 19, 2008 19:08:39 GMT
Being gay is up to the individual......morality does not come into it so why should religion....
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Post by stealth1039 on Mar 20, 2008 11:36:48 GMT
Not quite sure that being gay is up to the individual Otto - according to most research you're born that way, not made.
At least the laws on homosexuality are now in line with most others i.e. if you don't involve someone unwilling or use force you haven't broken a law which, IMO, is how it should be. How the church want to interpret their book of fairytales is up to them.
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Post by Bismarck on Mar 20, 2008 11:58:07 GMT
Not quite sure that being gay is up to the individual Otto - according to most research you're born that way, not made. At least the laws on homosexuality are now in line with most others i.e. if you don't involve someone unwilling or use force you haven't broken a law which, IMO, is how it should be. How the church want to interpret their book of fairytales is up to them. I did not know that.....anyway it's nice to see the social barrier coming down on this one....
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Post by arover on Mar 20, 2008 14:16:40 GMT
Not quite sure that being gay is up to the individual Otto - according to most research you're born that way, not made. At least the laws on homosexuality are now in line with most others i.e. if you don't involve someone unwilling or use force you haven't broken a law which, IMO, is how it should be. How the church want to interpret their book of fairytales is up to them.
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Post by hallmackem on Mar 28, 2008 22:40:01 GMT
Forget the problem of evil. If God is perfect, why is there entropy?
Entropy being the scientific principal by which everything in the Universe, including the Universe itself, decays. In other words, there are no perfect systems. We can argue the nature of Evil until we are blue in the face and get nowhere. Entropy on the other hand is a proven scientific fact. Free-will does not enter into the equation. If in the beginning there was only God and God is perfect, then where did such an unescapable imperfection come from?
Some religions say God promises eternal life. If such a thing as eternal life exists then where exactly are we to spend it? The Universe itself is not eternal? Isn't this a serious flaw? Where was Adam to spend eternity before he ate the fruit?
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Post by Bismarck on Mar 29, 2008 14:28:31 GMT
We may, as individuals, have life easy for a time, but death catches us, each one, and the overall plight of mankind grows more perilous day by day.....I nearly died recently,but the doctors only delayed the inevitable...
God may heal us when we become ill, but our restored good health lasts only for a period of time. We do not know from scientific observation whether a local decrease in entropy such as we would expect from a "healing miracle of God" represents an input of new energy into the physical world, or simply a local energy transfer that does not change the sum total of the energy reserves of the Old Created Order......
Lazarus was raised from the dead by Jesus, but he later died like everyone else in his generation. Did his temporary raising from the dead occur because new, outside energy was introduced into our physical universe, or did Jesus borrow the necessary energy from an existing energy reservoir in the old creation? However Jesus did it, it was meant to give us a picture in miniature of a greater and more permanent resurrection in which those raised would never die. Lazarus is not now with us, so the restoration of his life was temporary, the reversal of his death did not prevail.....
Yet his fellow believers will see Lazarus again in the great resurrection which is to come......
I suggest you google "Maxwell's Demons" Ben.....you will have hours of fun,culminating in a massive headache!
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Post by hallmackem on Mar 29, 2008 17:41:28 GMT
Regarding the New Testament:
What independent verified evidence is there to suggest Jesus of Nazareth even existed? Some would argue the Roman historian Josephus made reference to a man by the name of 'Christos' in his works. This however, has been proven to be fallacious. Other than the Bible there are only a scattering of mentions of the messiah, none of which were recorded at the time (which, incidentaly, is one of the problems with the Bible, and the Quran which mentions Jesus but not as a God). Don't you find it odd that a deity incarnate was walking the Earth raising the dead, turning water into wine and walking on water yet nobody bothered to write it down until years after his death? To put forward the Bible as any kind of theological or historical evidence is to engage in a logical fallacy yet so many accept it blindly.
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Post by Bismarck on Mar 29, 2008 18:26:10 GMT
Tacitus, Pliny the elder and Josephus make passing mention to Christ and Christians. But the fact is, an obscure intenerate Rabbi in an obscure conner of a huge empire, would hardly rate inclusion in historical writings till his followers made an impact on the culture at large. Also from what we've learned of first century Judea, the details in the Gospels would be hard if not impossible to fake........
An example would be: until the middle of the twentieth century it was called into question if a procurator named Pontius Pilate even existed, but in 1961 a pillar was found (the Pilate stone) with an inscription that put that to rest.......
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Post by hallmackem on Mar 29, 2008 19:09:18 GMT
Whether it was in remote corner of the biggest empire in the world or not (which it wasn't incidentally, it was a major passage of trade) surely someone raising the dead would get more recognition by his contemparys.
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Post by Lukiebakercafc on Mar 30, 2008 12:34:23 GMT
Not when the idea of him being the son of God was being sneered at and considered criminal by anyone in a position of power. Throughout the bible we see Jesus having derision heaped upon him by the more powerful, higher class people. They probably considered him a madman, a delusional person not worthy of note.
Anyway, i have a question that i've been wondering for a while. It's been pretty much established that most people on this forum don't have a fith. Nothing wrong with that, everyone is different. But do you respect religion and people who believe it?
Whether you think Jesus existed or not, whether you believe religion is hypocritical, whatever - you can't deny (although i'm sure you will now try) that the type of life we are supposed to follow, set out in the bible and other religious texts has worth. Treating others as you would like to be treated, loving thy neighbour, turning the other cheek etc. are all very good ideas to try and embed into our lives.
So, do you respect the people who follow this, try and live like that and believe in God, Jesus etc despite lack of evidence? I know i do. To have that amount of faith in something is admirable imo - i don't believe everything the catholic church preaches, i take what i want from it and take the stories and parables as metaphors and guidance how to live my life.
Do you respect and admire religious people, or heap derision on them for believing something with no proof (surely needing proof for something is a belief anyway!)? That is my question to you (in there somewhere!)
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Post by Bismarck on Mar 30, 2008 12:49:40 GMT
As I have stated before, have the faith and conviction in God and Jesus.....but I also hold a healthy respect for all religions that preach peace and tolerance.
Historically,religions of all types have been twisted to man's own ends-eg-The Spanish to conquor South America using Catholithism....I for one would not sneer at your faith matey.....
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Post by stealth1039 on Mar 30, 2008 13:20:11 GMT
My own views on this are the same as the debate over homosexuality - don't force it on me & I'll respect your right to believe in whatever floats your boat.
I would say that having a moral code to live life by is even more of a necessity with an overcrowded world but, ironically, religion or any form of spiritual belief is in decline. In a world where greed rules there is, thanks to science disproving the theory of creation, no balancing mechanism (i.e. If you go too far you'll be punished in the next life) so every excess is justified by "You only have one life".
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Post by Bismarck on Mar 30, 2008 14:15:23 GMT
Therefore, "The Meek" will not inherit the earth....!!!
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Post by hallmackem on Mar 30, 2008 14:55:57 GMT
Not when the idea of him being the son of God was being sneered at and considered criminal by anyone in a position of power. Throughout the bible we see Jesus having derision heaped upon him by the more powerful, higher class people. They probably considered him a madman, a delusional person not worthy of note. Anyway, i have a question that i've been wondering for a while. It's been pretty much established that most people on this forum don't have a fith. Nothing wrong with that, everyone is different. But do you respect religion and people who believe it? Whether you think Jesus existed or not, whether you believe religion is hypocritical, whatever - you can't deny (although i'm sure you will now try) that the type of life we are supposed to follow, set out in the bible and other religious texts has worth. Treating others as you would like to be treated, loving thy neighbour, turning the other cheek etc. are all very good ideas to try and embed into our lives. So, do you respect the people who follow this, try and live like that and believe in God, Jesus etc despite lack of evidence? I know i do. To have that amount of faith in something is admirable imo - i don't believe everything the catholic church preaches, i take what i want from it and take the stories and parables as metaphors and guidance how to live my life. Do you respect and admire religious people, or heap derision on them for believing something with no proof (surely needing proof for something is a belief anyway!)? That is my question to you (in there somewhere!) Some of what the Bible says is good and applaudable yes. However the Bible also says that a rebellious child should be stoned to death. It states that if a man rapes a woman he must then buy her from her father. And before you talk about this being in the Old Testament and more outdated Jewish law, i do believe Jesus told people to follow the laws of the Old Testament. If the Bible is God's absolute word, then why don't people follow it to the letter? And i am fairly certain you will now use the argument "But our view of the Bible must move with the times." That's fair enough but if it was God's word it must be good enough for all times, it hasn't changed since it was written. It isn't just the Bible either, there are numerous references in the Quran telling Muslims to 'Fight the unbelievers wherever you find them.' Of course most Muslims would never fight people for not being Muslim in this day and age. But go back in time, of course they would. What has changed about this holy text that means most attitudes have as well? This leads me to the conclusion that morality can't come from religion, if it did we'd still be stoning people to death in the streets (yes i'm aware this still happens but not in the developed world). I leave you with this; "Blasphemy is a victimless crime."
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Post by hallmackem on Mar 30, 2008 14:59:31 GMT
And about the ruling classes not taking Jesus seriously, wasn't that just Herod and the Pharisees? Surely someone amongst his followers or the people his miracles affected would have chronicled it.
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Post by Bismarck on Mar 30, 2008 15:09:31 GMT
Tee hee Ben...I have seen the quote on t-shirts..... Are you an equal opportunity atheist or do you simply go after the Christian God because we tolerate it far better the other religions?
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Post by stealth1039 on Mar 30, 2008 15:12:42 GMT
Therefore, "The Meek" will not inherit the earth....!!! Has there ever been much doubt about that?
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Post by hallmackem on Mar 30, 2008 15:12:52 GMT
Did you miss my comment about the Quran? I view almost all faiths with the same disdain.
The excptions are the far eastern ones that preach total peace with no higher being waiting to punish you (Buddhism, Taoism, Jainism etc'). They do it because they believe humans should do that, not because they fear the sky pixie.
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Post by stealth1039 on Mar 30, 2008 15:17:43 GMT
And Western "ideals" are even starting to infect them now.
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Post by hallmackem on Mar 30, 2008 15:22:22 GMT
Yes unfortunately.
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Post by Bismarck on Mar 30, 2008 15:23:50 GMT
Did you miss my comment about the Quran? I view almost all faiths with the same disdain. The excptions are the far eastern ones that preach total peace with no higher being waiting to punish you (Buddhism, Taoism, Jainism etc'). They do it because they believe humans should do that, not because they fear the sky pixie. Well young Benjamin......we will have to agree to disagree.....Your arguments,as always,are enjoyable and credible,but you will just have to respect my beliefs.....I would love to be around in 30 years time and ask you again what you think......
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Post by hallmackem on Mar 30, 2008 15:38:25 GMT
Of course i respect your beliefs, i'm an Atheist not an Anti-theist.
In thirty years there will probably be more reason not to believe in God.
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Post by Bismarck on Mar 30, 2008 18:26:55 GMT
Quite possible Ginger.....
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Post by arover on Mar 31, 2008 14:38:04 GMT
"Fear the Sky Pixie" Like it.
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